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Comment by Phil Henshaw on May 7, 2009 at 7:10pm

Ellen, I think metaphor is different from archetypes in a basic way. Metaphor is suggestive, and prompts your imagination to explore your mind and feelings for associations. Archetypes are descriptions of real elements of nature, that prompt you to explore natural forms as they exist in the world. It gets confused because we have metaphors in our descriptions of nature and descriptions of nature in our metaphors... ;-) but apart from that regular mix-up it's all perfectly clear and distinct! I'm not well read on Jung, but he seems to have mostly concerned himself with universal personality characters. I think these are sometimes the great and small persistent problems of life, and that people may inherit from their passages in life and so become 'mulled over' generation after generation, somewhat like threads of conversation without a name. Does that fit your view? I seem to notice these leading people to run into the same kinds of situations over and over, luck or trouble or attracting people in need, for example, and like in a game you can't put down the card that draws you into them until you've resolved the question somehow, or passed it on to someone else... or something.

Comment by Discovery Fuel on May 6, 2009 at 7:57pm

no, no offense taken. it inspired me to write about the white elephant in the main blog. i've been wanting to try this threaded discussion tool to make our conversation easier from here. Let's try it; it's at http://www.youforum.cc/changingnormal/

Comment by Ellen Lee on May 6, 2009 at 7:45pm

Sorry. No offense intended. I am interested in starting a conversation. I don't know if this is an "appropriate" question, but I'm going to throw it out here anyway. I have been reading Jung of late, and am interested in talking about how his ideas of archetype, metaphors, and the commonality of certain concepts throughout humanity.

I would also like to talk about metaphor in general. How do metaphors help us clarify our meaning to others when we speak? For example, if I say something like, "She looked so beautiful. A rose was never so ravishing", how does this metaphor of the rose help the listener better understand the beauty of this woman?

Comment by Discovery Fuel on May 6, 2009 at 6:05pm

This is exactly the issue. We have a society of people expecting to understand right from the get go. If their understanding doesn't match their curiosity within x minutes, the logical brain wins and the intuitive looses its ability to learn. Changing Normal is a learning system. It is poised on the question (which two are now beginning to ask). it is not initially interested in answers. Notice how you are already frustrated because you don't have an answer to the dilemma of why this place is so quiet. Dialog is the only way for a different future to begin. If we race to large volumes of seemingly high levels of activity; its probably because folks are getting responses that match they're old expectations. Changing the code of culture is challenging, and language plays a key role in this. And so does patience. And so does and openness to step into conversations that are not clear, that do not have a solid agenda. Not yet. Believe me, I'm all for getting stuff done, but not for the sake of completion. Rather, for the sake of real deep permeable juicy change ... a change from what we think is normal.

Comment by Ellen Lee on May 6, 2009 at 5:48pm

I'm kind of wondering the same thing as Phil, Vic. What is it exactly that we are to talk about here? I've been unclear from the beginning. But the group's name sounded interesting! I'm unclear about the question asked at the top: "What words (language) do you use to to speak to yourself or others?" What kind of words are we discussing? Thankls!

Comment by Phil Henshaw on May 6, 2009 at 4:23am

I'm not sure what there is to discuss, but my phone is 212-795-4844. I don't have a skype account. Vic, you've put in a lot of work on this site, but in the image of a community that doesn't quite exist. I belong to too many similar "social networks", and prefer email myself, where I don't have to copy what I write and send an email to myself to have a record of what's been said...

What do you think's going on? Are the sustainability communities thinking that the problems all solve themselves if people are in favor of it, so there's not much to talk about?

Comment by Ellen Lee on May 5, 2009 at 12:53pm

I'm not going to be able to meet you on Skype tomorrow after all. I forgot about a previous commitment. I'm so sorry. Reschedule? Thanks!

Comment by Discovery Fuel on May 5, 2009 at 8:54am

skype: here's all my contact info http://VicDesotelle.com :) skype is 'vicdesotelle'

Comment by Phil Henshaw on May 5, 2009 at 7:26am

Vic. You apparently also set up a similar 'social network' for O2 at Visit O2 International Network of Sustainable Designers at: http://o2sustainabledesign.ning.com. What's skype?

Comment by Ellen Lee on May 5, 2009 at 6:10am

Wednesday would be a better night for me. I'm in South Carolina, so I'm three hours later than you are in California, Vic. So, let me know what time can fit with both our schedules. I can also talk after 4:00 p.m. EDT. Thanks!

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